UpYourStack with Sinch

[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to UpYourStack, the podcast for sales marketing operation leaders looking to optimize their HubSpot tech stack and drive better business outcomes. I'm your host, Noah Berk, Co CEO of Aptitude 8. And in today's episode, we're joined by Alex Rhodes, Senior Partner, Marketing Manager at Sinch.

[00:00:18] Alex has a wealth of experience in messaging technologies and strategic partnerships. Having worked with global leaders like Google to transform the way businesses communicate specifically around and through rich communication services, otherwise known as RCS, which we'll talk more about in a bit.

[00:00:35] He'll share insights into the future of messaging, the role of partnerships and how businesses can build trust and engagement through innovative communication strategies.

[00:00:44] Let's listen in!

[00:00:45] Alex. So tell us what is Sinch?

[00:00:48] Thanks Noah, Sinch is a digital communications company, so it's a global company, and we do everything from SMS, RCS, [00:01:00] email, phone calls, chat, and we have, you know, just like every good tech company, an AI division where we're bringing in AI to everything that we do.

[00:01:11] Oh, that's awesome. And you announced a couple, or you said a couple of acronyms there, which we'll get in a little bit more into here in a minute. But you know, I always like to just kind of start off these conversations and understand a little bit more about your career and how you got to where you are.

[00:01:22] So can you tell me a little bit more about your journey and what really excites you about this current role? 

[00:01:27] Absolutely. So I'm a, I'm a sales and marketing guy from way back. I I've done everything from selling print, which kind of dates me and going through that transition to digital sales and marketing. And with Sinch, there was an opportunity in the product marketing team. So I started working with, at the time it was message media, Sinch purchased message media and working with the product marketing team on Developing SMS and taking that to market.

[00:01:59] Now [00:02:00] I'm in the partner marketing team working with our partners and we're going from SMS now to RCS and I'll stop acronyming you to death and we can, we can talk about that in a minute.

[00:02:10] Well, I mean, I'm glad you brought up some of the acronyms. And by the way, I also know that experience because when I got into a digital marketing was when everyone was making the transition from selling yellow page ads to selling online digital marketing. And that was like the wild west of selling.

[00:02:23] It was a lot of fun at the time when you were explaining to everyone exactly what it was. But you had mentioned something about RCS. And really kind of curious from your perspective and obviously 

[00:02:32] I'm sure a lot of listeners are unfamiliar with RCS. Can you explain what it is and why it's really the next evolution in messaging?

[00:02:41] The way I like to explain it just so it's simple, 

[00:02:44] RCS is going to replace SMS. The text that you currently get on your phone 

[00:02:49] from Your, 

[00:02:50] from any business relationship you have, if you're getting your 50 percent off, 

[00:02:54] you know, 

[00:02:55] or 20 percent off sale, that is all going to become RCS. Now what does that [00:03:00] mean?

[00:03:00] It's kind of an eye roll thing, sound, you can quickly get into the weeds. 

[00:03:03] It means images, it means reply buttons, it means automatic replies 

[00:03:09] or pre written replies so that you can go ahead and reply directly there. 

[00:03:12] Carousels 

[00:03:13] an 

[00:03:14] in-app wallet. 

[00:03:15] That's integration 

[00:03:16] so that people can buy right there 

[00:03:18] within SMS.

[00:03:20] That's a really big difference from SMS right now because you really can't do anything. I mean, you can hit reply one, I'm confirming my haircut today, which I'm sure we've all experienced before. And honestly, without that going on, I'm pretty sure I would have missed a few by now in my life.

[00:03:34] But it sounds like, it'll be almost more like email in the sense it can be interactive. Yeah. 

[00:03:38] You've got 

[00:03:39] it!. It's much more interactive right now. RCS is still kind of in the beginning stages. Now, if you are an Android user and I'm an Apple guy, so I make fun of all my friends who are Android users, but they are kind of a step ahead with RCS.

[00:03:54] insulting listeners who are Android users. It's totally okay.

[00:03:59] I'm telling you, [00:04:00] RCS has been available on Android. So they are a step ahead there.

[00:04:04] Yeah.

[00:04:06] Apple is now allowing that on iOS devices. There's a whole Thing with Apple, Google, and how we make this all work on the back end. So now that that's available on Apple devices, you're gonna see this a lot more. And so big first step is verification, which means if you're a business, the carriers, the AT& Ts of the world, the Verizons, they want to be sure that NOAA is NOAA sending this message.

[00:04:39] So, they're going to verify that you are who you are as a business, and you're going to get a little checkbox next to your name on the messages you send, and along with that, it's going to come through as Noah's Business or Nike versus One, two, three, four, five. So all of a [00:05:00] sudden, as the user, now I say, oh, that's definitely from the business that's reaching out to me.

[00:05:06] That's definitely from my bank. That's

[00:05:08] You mean not from USPS saying you have a package that hasn't arrived and you need to pay 6. 95 to get that package

[00:05:15] Click here to submit your payment, and you know

[00:05:18] From an international number on top of it all. Yeah. That's fascinating. And so I think a lot of listeners may have heard in the news recently about how I believe it was the FBI and several other organizations saying, SMS is no longer safe or text messaging, and I know a lot of us through verification may request Hey, send a text message to verify your log in.

[00:05:39] So. 

[00:05:40] How is this a better technology for messaging security than what's currently done with SMS? 

[00:05:46] Yeah,

[00:05:49] just talked about a little bit. The carriers, you're not just going to be able to send RCS as someone who has an SMS account. If you're a business, you have to work [00:06:00] through the carriers, and that's what Sinch where I work, we help you work with those carriers to get verified, so that the AT&T s and the Verizons of the world are saying, you are definitely this bank, and we are validating that these are the kinds of messages you are sending from this number, And because of that, you get all of this verification so that it shows up as XYZ Bank with the verified symbol.

[00:06:26] That way your customers know that you are sending a legitimate message. And so, that along with the encryption is going to keep you safe.

[00:06:35] that's awesome because I'm pretty sure all listeners are frustrated. And with those random text messages, if you're a business owner, you want to be able to send a message out to your customer. And you don't want it to be ignored. I know the number of times I'm pretty sure people have reached out to me.

[00:06:51] I'm like, I have to double check. Is this real? Is this coming from a real place? So what it's telling me now is that Sinch is going to help people, not only businesses verify [00:07:00] this, but give a sense of trust and confidence. 

[00:07:02] So, do you see this as a really powerful technology, not just for finance and technology, but for other types of businesses as well, who want to do this type of communication?

[00:07:11] Absolutely, because part of what makes RCS so interesting to marketers and to sales people and businesses is there is in app encryption. Wallet functionality, so people will be able to buy straight from the messages. So if you're a retailer, that's huge. I want to know as a user that when I click this button, it's definitely XYZ retailer and I'm buying a new vest.

[00:07:39] I want to be sure that it's you. I'm not just giving my credit card out to someone else who is gonna do awful things with it. RCS keeps you safe in that environment.

[00:07:50] Well, that's gonna be awesome. Not just for business to consumer, but also business to business. Let's say you fill out a form and you want to talk to a sales rep and they send out a message. Or let's say you're a pest control [00:08:00] company and someone says, Hey, I got, termite infestation.

[00:08:03] Reach out, they reach out to you, immediately send them a message and it's click here to schedule.

[00:08:08] Yes.

[00:08:09] appointment and you just click right there to schedule your appointment and it's the right organization, it's the right place that is absolutely exciting technology. And if you're a business out there right now, and you're listening to this podcast, definitely in this particular case, this technology, I think it will be a game changer as another mechanism for communication above and beyond.

[00:08:27] Well, and I love your example there of like an exterminator because this is a person who's coming into your house and I've gotten a few messages from you know, people from electricians to exterminators and in my house where, I'll confirm an appointment, and then they send a link back with a photo of who's coming and a little background of who this person is, things they're interested in.

[00:08:50] So when he shows up or she shows up to my door, it's not a stranger. And that's the other thing that I think we all need to keep in mind with RCS, SMS, [00:09:00] MMS. Put an acronym in. When you're texting someone, it's a one to one relationship most of the time, unless you're sending an alert. And it's very important to remember that you're not just sending this out to a thousand people, you're sending it to me and I'm trusting that you're a real person.

[00:09:18] So having that personal relationship so that when you show up at my door, I know something about you, I know who you are. We've kind of had a conversation. It just makes the customer experience so much better. No,

[00:09:31] So I guess this goes into a concept that's been talked about for probably, decades now, ever since email came out, this is going to kill email.

[00:09:40] it won't feel email. No, email is still necessary. I mean, with RCS. and SMS. And this is something that drives me crazy as a marketer and someone in this industry when someone, a business sends me a text and I'm just like, all you did was take your email program and throw it into an automated SMS [00:10:00] program.

[00:10:00] And now you're just sending me a bunch of stuff. Don't do that. Please. Email is still vital because if I need to send you forms or longer form content, multiple paragraphs, and then you've got to sign a form and I got to attach PDFs and all of that. email still has its place. RCS and SMS and MMS, which is SMS with pictures, basically.

[00:10:28] That is just a little bit more personal and it's going to be much more quick form, short form content that you're sending. You want a reaction immediately.

[00:10:37] interesting. I'll just kind of switch topics a little bit. I'd love to get a little bit more into partnerships and philosophy around it. Obviously you lead partnerships over. At Sinch and I think in previous conversation, compare partnerships to relationships. What are some of these key ingredients to building a successful partnership and, how do you approach this at Sinch?

[00:10:56] Sure. I think, I think the post you're talking about, I mentioned my wife [00:11:00] and how he met in that relationship. Maybe we'll talk about that story. I don't know, but

[00:11:05] Why not right now? No, I'm just kidding.

[00:11:07] let's go for it. With, with the rela it's like dating, right? You know, We're gonna meet each other. We're gonna say, hey, great to meet you.

[00:11:16] Here's a little bit about me. We're gonna have a couple conversations where we see if any, if this lines up. Because if you're into football, and I'm into basketball, and then there's probably not a joint interest there. That doesn't mean that we can't still be friends, but we're probably not going to continue down this path, or You know, if you're looking for a long term relationship, and I'm just looking to have a short term relationship, that's not aligned.

[00:11:41] So, making sure from the beginning that we're aligned. You're not gonna close deals together. You're not gonna refer leads together on the first date.

[00:11:51] Yeah

[00:11:52] dinner and learn things about each other.

[00:11:54] I agree. I actually did a talk one year. Well, I actually had a hotspot inbound the differences between [00:12:00] the different type of partnerships where you can have a true referral partnership, essentially just referring business to someone versus go to market partnership where you're actually actively going to market with that particular partner.

[00:12:11] And you got to decide between what's in the best interest for both organizations and how do you want to work and operate. So I completely get that analogy. Basketball and football. You still think they could get along. The problem is there is some overlap in seasons, who's going to watch that game that night, like Christmas

[00:12:26] exactly.

[00:12:28] on the same day.

[00:12:28] I don't know about that, but it's there to say LeBron James wasn't happy. If you know that news that's a different story there. This is absolutely great. I do want to take a step back and actually go back to messaging and Sinch itself. And the organization since you guys do a lot, do me a favor, kind of summarize the different solutions you offer a Sinch.

[00:12:49] And then I want to follow up that with what is the future of messaging as we head out there.

[00:12:54] Sure, the solutions offered at Sinch, we've talked about SMS, MMS, which is a form [00:13:00] of SMS where you're able to send photos. RCS, which is the next big thing that is going to replace SMS. Email, so if you want to do email APIs, if you want to do email design. Chat, we have AI built into a chat function where you can have chat right there in your website and then the ability to go from that chat to SMS. You know, if you're, if you've ever been chatting with an agent online and then you're like, man, I gotta go pick up my kids. Can we take this offline? The ability to do that, even to voice and setting up voice networks and voice systems. The thing that Sinch does that most companies can't do is bring that all together.

[00:13:43] There, we have what's called a conversational API. So on this side you have all of your different data centers and sources of truth. Sinch API comes in, all the data runs through, we're able to send that to voice, email, SMS. Any webhook that comes back, we can route that back through, get the right [00:14:00] data so that You're able to tie your data to your communications with customers and businesses you work with or partners.

[00:14:07] Awesome. Awesome. And so I guess one of the questions I have as well kind of going on this track is take HubSpot for example, 

[00:14:13] you have a lot of companies using HubSpot using it for their marketing and communication. How does Sinch work with HubSpot? 

[00:14:19] So if you're a HubSpot customer now, 

[00:14:21] why leverage Sinch in this capacity?

[00:14:23] Sure. So 

[00:14:24] we have an integration built in with HubSpot. 

[00:14:26] We're at partners with HubSpot and the integration is for SMS and MMS and we're adding RCS into that as well as WhatsApp capabilities that you can send via WhatsApp. Now HubSpot also has its own SMS as well that you can use. 

[00:14:44] The difference with Sinch is going to be One, we're a global sender.

[00:14:49] If you want to send outside of the U. S. Sinch is possibly your only choice. 

[00:14:54] There might be one or two others, but we're within HubSpot. 

[00:14:59] If you want to send [00:15:00] globally, Sinch is able to do that because we have global networks. 

[00:15:03] The other piece right now is that 

[00:15:05] Sinch has an MMS, which means you can send those photos and videos.

[00:15:10] It's not quite the level of RCS yet. But, 

[00:15:12] if you receive photos or videos from the businesses or retailers or banks that you do business with, that is, again, another affirmation to you that it's coming from the right person or the right business.

[00:15:27] And is a HubSpot, let's say company leveraging HubSpot. Will they eventually be able to leverage RCS? That integration with Sinch and be able to use RCS with HubSpot.

[00:15:37] Absolutely.

[00:15:38] okay. And I think obviously that's going to be the big, that's gonna be the big change because I don't think most businesses are aware of RCS and how that's going to become popular.

[00:15:47] It's not like an individual, me sending a message to my friend. Is it a one on one, like an individual send RCS or just the technology platform? Am I still sending it [00:16:00] via that text platform?

[00:16:02] You're still sending it via the text platform. The difference is you're going to be able to add images and the functionality with the different buttons. So that aspect of it, it's kind of, I think in the past I've compared it to when the iPad came out and we were like, we already got the iPhone. Why do we need the

[00:16:20] Yeah, why do we need a

[00:16:22] then you used it and you were like, Oh, I get it. Now I understand why we have this. RCS is just the next iteration of how messaging works. And to your point, yeah, not a lot of people know about that yet because you can get really technical and into the weeds. The point for marketers and salespeople is this is coming.

[00:16:44] You need to get on it now because what's going to happen is, like I said earlier, you have to be, you have to work with the carriers so that you're verified. That line is backing up now. So if you're not in line, [00:17:00] It's going to just take you longer to get up to speed with that. And once you use your, your boss as the marketer sees, have you seen the conversion rates that these companies are get getting using RCS?

[00:17:11] Why aren't we using RCS yet? That's not going to be a fun conversation.

[00:17:15] For the listeners who out there would they recognize using this technology at this time? Or is it just the beginning? Like everyone's just waiting in line,

[00:17:22] getting ready for the restaurant's grand opening?

[00:17:24] That's a great question. Still the beginning in the U S in Europe, a lot of this is already happening and we have We have customers who are using this in Europe currently. In the U. S. right now, you're going to be able to do branded sending or verified brand sending and get that number so that it comes from XYZ bank instead of just a phone number.

[00:17:46] Interesting. And is the first organizations you think are they prioritizing like financial or healthcare institutions? Is there any prioritization versus the pest control company?

[00:17:56] From the carrier side, I don't believe there's a prioritization. If I'm a financial [00:18:00] company, I am jumping all over this because of what we talked about earlier and just having that confidence that this text coming to my phone is actually from my bank because that's my money.

[00:18:12] And does it cost money to get verified?

[00:18:15] It does not, there's no cost currently to get verified, at least through Stunch. It depends on which agent you're going through to, to get verified, but there should be no cost. The cost to send RCS is going to be pretty much the same as SMS to start we'll see where the carriers take it from there.

[00:18:32] And is there new technology that the end user who's sending the message is going to have to learn, or is it as simple as like you used to send a text, you're not just going to send a glorified text message. That looks like an email.

[00:18:44] that's the beautiful thing is The the end user is just going to say that's neat that this text has carousels and buttons in it And that's an ios 18 thing if you remember that just came out there was a lot of hype around [00:19:00] iOS 18, part of that was that RCS is available from person to person and the next step is getting that business to person.

[00:19:08] And when do you expect this to start rolling out? Like, when as an end user, am I going to start seeing these RCS messages? And to your point, it's coming just through a text message. Like how do you, I guess there's going to be a learning curve for even the individual user to recognize wait a second, I haven't seen a message like this before,

[00:19:25] It'll be exactly that, as the end user you'll say, oh, this is, this is wild, there's a carousel, there's a button, I can do all these different things right within. My messaging app. You should start seeing these in the first half of the year of 2025 I'd love to see it q1. We'll see how quickly we can

[00:19:48] Just send me, I just want to be one of the first and be like, I just want to go out there and be like, Hey everyone. First one to receive an RCS message.

[00:19:55] you can actually do it now from person to person like I could text [00:20:00] you know a personally with an RCS message from Apple to Android or Apple to Apple And, or Android to Android and it would show up as this is an RCS message. That's the iOS 18 update that everyone needed to make.

[00:20:16] Ah, I guess I need to make the ISO 18

[00:20:19] told you we were going to get into the technical weeds.

[00:20:21] Yeah, I did. I didn't do that part people. Sorry, listeners. All right, well, let's conclude this. I appreciate Alex. This is a fantastic conversation. And again, Really fascinating. Learn about RCS. What's coming down the pipe. I mean, for all the things you keep hearing about, do not send important information via text message anymore because someone's going to intercept it.

[00:20:38] Hopefully this will start solving some of these issues. So to kind of recap, what's one piece of I'll kind of switch make a little left turn here. What's one piece of advice you give the businesses looking to innovate with their communication strategies?

[00:20:50] Right now it is to get verified with the carriers so that you can start sending RCS as soon as possible because that line is going to start backing [00:21:00] up. So go ahead and get verified. Talk to us at Sinch. Um, my information, I'm sure we'll, we'll toss it out here in

[00:21:07] Well, yeah, absolutely. Well, Alex, how do you, how do listeners connect with you then?

[00:21:11] Sure. You can email me at alex.rhodes@sinch.com. You can find me on LinkedIn, Alex Rhodes, R-H-O-D-E-S, and you can go to Sinch.com SINC h.com and we have tons of people who are happy to, to help you with RCS.

[00:21:30] Alex, this was an absolutely fascinating conversation. I really enjoyed learning about RCS and really what Sinch does. And listen, if you're out there right now, get on that line don't be the last one there. If you're a marketer and you're like, Hey, my boss is saying I need to do something new. Well, heck, here's your new thing to do.

[00:21:47] And I bet it's going to become more and more integrated as you see with technology like HubSpot journeys and workflows and sending emails and messages and phone calls and having AI pick up the phone and call you too. All right. I just got ahead of myself. But [00:22:00] Hey, the future is coming fast. Again, Alex, thank you so much for joining the show today.

[00:22:04] It was a pleasure talking to you. And appreciate it. And listeners, I hope you enjoyed.

[00:22:08] Thanks so much, Noah.

[00:22:09] ​